Be careful, today’s episode might make you feel a bit uncomfortable. How often do we postpone taking tough decisions? And how often do we avoid having difficult conversations, join me, as I talk with Shulin Lee who is a business owner and lawyer turned recruiter. She will share her inspiring journey and how she managed to take difficult decisions and navigate really tough conversations. Stay tuned.

I think a good place to start, is to understand the backstory. How did you switch from being a lawyer to a legal recruiter?

 

Shulin:

It was not a snap decision. It was a decision that actually took place over a few years and what I think, what was very difficult for me was when I was growing up, I always wanted to be a lawyer. So, here’s the thing, two months into my job as a lawyer, I realized this is not for me, but obviously, two months is too soon. But what I did was, as an impulsive young, what 20, 20 something-year-old, I sent out my CV to everyone and I also had Every door rejection, every rejection, imaginable, every dollar shut in my face. And everyone I met. Everyone was willing to interview me, actually sensual in, stay on in law, don’t quit so soon. So, it was a process of three and a half years of soul-searching applying for jobs.

And then when the opportunity came to leave Law to do something else, which was legal recruitment, I Grabbed it with both hands. So, I think a lot of people saw this major decision, but what people didn’t see was that it was behind the scenes already in the making for a number of years.

 

Rodrigo:

And how did you realize that that was not for you?

 

Shulin:

Okay, so my motto in life is to always Excel, okay? Or always giving my best. And the thing is, I sorry to my ex-bosses, but I just didn’t feel like giving my best when I was a lawyer and that was a warning sign. Because if I couldn’t be bothered to be the best or refined my craft or constantly seeking to improve myself, which is, I know, that’s me, right then. And I can’t do that in the legal profession, they mean that I was in the wrong road. And now looking back. It’s clear. Why there was so much discomfort. So, there was this feeling of unease when I was a lawyer, I felt like a fraud. Actually, I felt I didn’t belong. So, imposter syndrome is very strong but that wasn’t just imposter syndrome. It was actually a signal from within me that this is not my calling. This is not where I can be my best and if I had stayed on, I’m convinced that I would actually I’ve been a very mediocre lawyer. I will have been very unhappy and definitely not able to live with who I then become you know because if you live with something that is not really you. That’s the most tragic of it all. Yeah. I think what I love is that you listen to that discomfort, and you were Brave to take a decision and that’s huge. Okay, thank you. Yes, yes, yes. Looking back, it Was very brief because I took a massive pay cut. Like from I was on 8,500 dollars a month as a senior associate in a big law firm and when I jumped, I basically had no base salary. Yeah, so that was, that was difficult.

 

Rodrigo:

So today what drives you?

 

Shulin:

Wow. Okay, so many things I have two sons, so you know that that drives me my family, you know, my very supportive husband. But beyond that what drives me is making an impact Beyond myself and my immediate team. So, I always tell my team, we cannot look at this as just a job. If we look at this as just like clock in clock out for a pay check, frankly, there are other jobs that easier. That okay, because our job as recruiters we journey with people, we have to plot their careers, we work with our clients to find the best talent. It’s not easy because we’re dealing with people. And so, what drives me is really to act in the best interests of the people we work with such that it’s not, transactional is never transactional with us is a lot more work actually, because it was just transactional. It’s like, here you go, that’s it. I don’t have to think so much, but because we go above and beyond which is aligned with our values. Then that’s what really drives me when we do. I always think people who go above and beyond their job scope is a people I want to hire my team.

 

Rodrigo:

So, I think now I think would be nice to understand and what breaks your heart. That’s a deep question. What? Breaks my heart? So, what breaks my heart is speaking and hearing from people who feel stuck and they say they have no choice. Okay. That is very heart-breaking. Feeling. Stuck is one thing, okay, you can do something about it but then turning around and saying, oh I have no choice, I’m stuck where I am and this is my lot in life, this my destiny. Breaks my heart. When someone feels they are helpless. There are no choice. And they play quite frankly, the victim card has a victim mentality. Yeah.

 

Rodrigo:

So, so for you, what’s been the most difficult decision that you took in your life?

 

Shulin:

Well, so many, right? So, we talked about leaving law, that was one the most difficult decision in my life in recent times, has been to part ways with my former co-founder. That was very difficult. It was difficult on so many levels because we were together for 12 years, there’s a shared history, it’s because it’s not just a Business Partnership. It’s also a friend, you know, almost like a cheetah had almost like a family member. So, it was very difficult to have to acknowledge and recognize that our paths have diverged and it’s okay, there’s no good, there’s no bad. It’s just the reality is our endgame RN Vision, were no longer the same, so it was a Natural Evolution. But it was difficult, very difficult. And what was that moment that you felt like, okay, I really need to take this decision. Wow, another difficult question. so, there was there were a lot of things that happen along the years which quite frankly I think I disregarded or just you know chose the clothes and I to covid-19 the pandemic working from home I think it was 2021 when I realized how diverged our vision have gone you know and the thing about life is that we prefer. Well, I prefer any way to go through it like Cruise, you know, and just turn a blind eye and just relax because I would rather not have to rock the boat, you know. So, the trigger was when I realized in 2021 hang on these are going to be the best years of my life. These are the best years of my life. I don’t want to sweep everything and other the carpet. I wanted to have an uncomfortable conversation because in that uncomfortable conversation, then I confirmed that our views were really desperate, so that was the trigger point.

 

Rodrigo:

And for people who might be in the same situation, they might need to take a difficult decision, but they are not able to do it. What’s your advice? Okay, so if there is someone who is facing a difficult decision.

 

Shulin:

First of all, congratulations. Relations and acknowledge that you are about to go into the next chapter, right? Because you are really feeling the discomfort, right? That’s why you are finding it difficult. If it’s an easy decision then, and it’s no-brainer, then it wouldn’t be, I think it won’t be a Quantum Leap. So, first of all, acknowledge yourself for Having the courage to face a difficult decision. I think there are three steps before you and back on. Making that difficult decision, particularly if it’s got to do with career, okay? First of all, it’s self-discovery. Ask yourself what your strengths are, what your weaknesses are and it’s very easy. You can just ask yourself, what do I love doing? What do I hate doing? Right? What the absolutely detest doing? And you can also rely on diagnostic tools, like the Gallup strength test which I really recommend. I also do the disc test. I’m very high on D&I. So, you can be like all these obviously, you can speak to a coach to discover yourself and once you have uncovered, okay. Okay, this is who I am. This is sort of like the roadmap and I wish I did that earlier on perfectly. But yeah, so the first step is self-discovery then the second step is self-awareness. So now that you know who you are, let’s confirm it. Let’s speak to the people around you interview them, right? You may think you are certain person but ask someone how they perceive you. So, with my team, right? I might be telling my team a you should do this do that. Oh, and I think in my mind, I’m not sure being I’m a great leader, but maybe if you interview them, they’re like Shillings overbearing imposing and, you know, less egotistical. So, these are things that I’m not really.

But anyway, I think it’s so important to build that to do the exercise of discovering who you are. First step one. And then see if there is that because you might think you’re here, but you’re here, right? Then self-awareness, then before you make that decision, it’s also about Self Mastery. So, self-Mastery is a very big word. It really means having that Focus the intention and the discipline. So, I learned this actually when I did the Tony Robbins course and I had to be so disciplined and intentional about reflecting like reviewing, okay? We’re what has been going on for the last week? The last month the last quarter because if you’re about to make a difficult, Vision. You have to know where you are right now. Like, if you don’t know where you are, and you have to make that decision, you know, it’s not a proper decision, and if you skip steps one, and two, discovering yourself and self-awareness, you can’t actually Master yourself.

So, if you are facing a difficult decision, I would say for sure. Everyone says, speak to someone, but speak to who don’t speak to people in your comfort zone because they are usually just going to Echo your views. Maybe also start by listening to your podcast. Outcast great. Excellent resource information.

 

Rodrigo:

Yeah, really love that. So, it’s to go on a self-exploration journey but then just have some feedback on that to see is this really who I am and what I want and then the self-mastery. Well, it’s very good but sometimes life becomes so overwhelming there’s so much and sometimes people can feel lost. What is the smallest thing that someone Can do, you know, just to start.

 

Shulin:

Yes, and I feel that a lot of the times being overwhelmed. So, what I actually watch this YouTube video called, just start by David Allen, right? And every time I feel stuck, I watched that video again to remind myself and what he recommended. So, I cannot take credit for this is to get out of that space. So maybe what out going to Nature? Go somewhere else, take out. A notepad and just do a brain dump. So, just write everything down. I like to list down, like 10 things I need to do and then just pick up the top three things and do the first thing because you are feeling overwhelmed, right? And that’s actually a sign where you cannot be creative. You cannot focus. So, if you just do that exercise things just flow. Yeah, I really, really love that. Yeah. So, as part of the difficult decisions comes, sometimes having Eight conversations. Yes. Maybe you can share also as a story that you had where you had you know you had a difficult conversation and how did you navigate it? Yeah. Oh, I can think of so many examples of difficult conversations. What comes to mind more recently is a personal story was when I had to speak with my mother who I just had a falling out with, right? So, I was very unhappy, I was very disappointed, very sad, and I felt very, I would even say I was very heartbroken, you know, because I felt like She, I mean, I will not go into details about what was the falling-out? Should be. Might have another falling out after this. Ha ha ha, if I go into details, but the thing is that difficult conversation was so necessary, and I’m so proud of myself because I only took two days to get over that discomfort, and I drove myself to my mom’s office, and we had a really awkward conversation, very, very uncomfortable conversation Within 30, 45 minutes. There was healing, there was forgiveness. And our relationship went to another level like, we’re so much closer now, and it’s so beautiful.

 

Rodrigo:

Yes, thank you for sharing that personal story. What was the moment that you had that insight? There was that liminal moment that you felt. I really need to have this conversation because that’s the hardest part.

 

Shulin:

It was very hard, and I know some people can go for months and years, you know, not speaking with their own parents or their loved ones. The reason why I only took two days was because I couldn’t live with myself. If something happened to my mum and the last conversation I ever had was one of anger and unforgiveness. I cannot live with myself. My father-in-law did have a major stroke and overnight he couldn’t speak, you know, he’s not able to speak now. He’s still alive. Bye. Able to walk, he’s not able to talk and because of that, very major life circumstance. I look at life with a very different lens now. So yes, my mom and I did have an unhappy situation and then I asked myself, was it worth staying angry with her? Was? It is my love for her, not worth more. And what does it hurt to put aside my ego and my pride right? And go there. It was very uncomfortable. I can tell you; I remember when we were in the cafe it was like we were clumsily pulling out the chest and when we sat down and the woman sat down we were like just in tears. Yeah, it was a beautiful moment, and I will never forget it. I don’t think she’ll ever forget it and I wish more people will be brave enough to forgive and move on life is too short.

 

Rodrigo:

Thank you for sharing that. That is so beautiful. I think there’s so many people who feel stuck in their ego and they don’t take the decision to have conversations with their parents, you know, and they are stuck, you know, I was there also, and I mean, I’m very inspired by what you said because exactly the same thought that you had. I could not bear to leave this world with something and resolve with My family and I also did the same with my mom. So, thank you for sharing. But thanks for sharing that. That’s why you and I really connect them.

Yeah, well, that’s beautiful. Okay, so now we have an example of a personal story. Now, let’s jump, let’s maybe go into a professional story. You have a story where you also had to have a difficult conversation?

 

Shulin:

I did actually earlier this year, I have a team member Who is excellent in her work? She’s amazing. And the funny thing is, when I had to give her an honest appraisal, I found myself walking on eggshells. I was so worried about hurting her feelings because we both wanted her to be here, but the thing is she’s not there yet, right? And in order for me to have that difficult conversation to tell her, hey, these are some of the things that That you need to do. I don’t know why I froze, you know, I found it. So Challenging to be upfront and I’m usually not like that. I’m very direct and very transparent. Then II thought back and I asked myself, why am I so afraid? So, it turns out I was so scared that if I hurt her feelings, she might turn around and resign. So, this, this was all in my head, though, because she then came back to me and said shouldn’t stop beating around the bush. You know, like, just spit up. So, I’m glad that I created this pretty honest, transparent culture. So, when I, when I was being Quirt and, you know, beating around the bush.

I, well, my, my team member called me out. I also called myself out because it was so uncomfortable that it was bordering on inauthentic so yeah, but there you go. Now I have the Cure actually, so after that very awkward conversation which I never ever want to feel that way. Again, I came up with a new system and I must credit Rachel, limb of a lot of Bonito Who told me about Adam Grant? So, Adam Grant recommends doing exit interviews every month. Okay, this is not to encourage people to resign but basically you don’t want to get to a stage where you are having your exit interview with someone who already decided to leave their mentally checked out and they are angry. They are not going to listen to anything. So, if every month, we have a very simple conversation. How is the company feeling you, what? Have I done? To fail you. And what can I do? Better. So now that I have institutionalized it, it’s a lot easier. We do that every month or after every deal closing, we ask these questions and people don’t take it. So personally, they realize this is part and parcel of the company culture. But how did they feel at the beginning when you started doing that with your team? So, when they started doing that, they were all being very politically correct, you know, they didn’t want to hurt my feelings, you know. Is it now? She’ll and everything is good. I love it. Don’t lie. No, no, no. You know, let’s get to the real meat and it takes time to build that trust. It takes time for them to know that okay? I’m not going to get crucified for being honest. And also takes time for them to build this habit of Perpetual feedback. So, in these two situations in with your mum and also with your team member, what have you learned? Earn. I learned that it’s best not to put off difficult conversations when we suppress our true feelings, when we sweep things under the carpet, and we put on a brave front and say all good. I’m fine. I’m fine. Are you really? Things get much worse and things can escalate in ways, you cannot even expect. And so, the risk of not having the uncomfortable conversation, it’s actually much bigger than having it. So having it is actually less risky. Yeah, but people fail to realize that we play it up in our mind. Imagine, you know, imagine is going to be so difficult, but once you have it you feel so free, you feel liberated.

 

Rodrigo:

And I love what you said because also you had your playing In your mind, but that was just in your mind and it’s exactly what happens with all of us in these situations, we played in our minds and then it stopped us from having these difficult conversations. What I love about you is that you feel the discomfort. But that means for you, this is where I have to go. And you move you move forward? Yes. Yes. So good to me. You said it, right?

 

Shulin:

Because the moment I feel this discomfort or disconnect with myself. I just can’t. You know, I think maybe some people are Be good, or they’ve gotten very used to suppressing it, but I can’t do no. Like, I feel like I cannot get on with my day. I cannot get on with my life, and this is where some people wear their work. Performance suffers is because their personal lives at home are not being dealt with, you know. Like if I fight with my girlfriend, my husband, my boyfriend back, then, boyfriend. I remember feeling. I couldn’t focus on all.

 

Rodrigo:

So, if people are in the same situation that you were, for example, with your mom, um, what are some strategies that you find that can help people to first to take the decision and then to have the conversation?

 

Shulin:

Okay, great question because every time you’re feeling angry, you feel betrayed, or you feel upset, bullied, the last thing you want to do is forgive that person, right? The last thing. So, remembering that forgiving that person is actually really more for yourself. Then for that person, that’s key. Number one. Number two, that strategy that I go to my go-to strategy is to list down 10 things. I’m grateful for for that person. Immediately your mindset starts to shift. You know, in fact, funny story every time. My husband is upset with me or in a fight, right? I’m like tell me three things you’re grateful for and then we have a laugh, right? Because I in that moment so angry like what I’m not grateful for you but there’s always something to be grateful for always. Ways and then you can start thinking about trying to make amends to that person.

 

Rodrigo:

Yeah, that is so good. Well so much that you I love that you every opportunity that you had to have a difficult conversation or two. When you felt a discomfort, you were able to transform that in growth and that’s very, very inspiring. Okay. Yeah. Now that you see it that way?

 

Shulin:

Yes. Okay. I didn’t I didn’t look at it that way about thanks.

 

Rodrigo:

And when you look back to all these that we’ve been talking, what are you most proud of?

 

Shulin:

I’m proud of so many things in my life and I’ve been so blessed. I’m the proudest of the fact that I built this business. Aslan legal, my legal recruitment firm, which I found that seven years ago when I was when I had a new-born baby had a two-month-old baby so my son is only two months older than my company. So, I’m proudest of that because that was actually a red dark period.

It was a dark period because I was trying to navigate motherhood I’ll try and navigate starting anew company. I didn’t even know how to set up like a corporate bank account. I remember going there. I’m like where do I go? You know, and I am proudest of the fact that I’ve come this far, and I never thought I could. You should, that is so good. And when you look at the at the world today, so what is your ideal world and how can we get there? So, I’m going to sell like, a Miss Universe contestant. Let’s go. So, my idea will is where there is peace. There is World Peace and how we can get there is if we can visualize Mother Earth as a huge, jigsaw puzzle. So, we are all part of this jigsaw and if only we take the time and we give ourself Grace to figure out where we exactly fit in based on our strengths based on our purpose and values. And when we find where we Along our home, everything will fit seamlessly, and everyone is happy for one another. There’s no jealousy. There is no Strife because you feel you belong; you don’t feel like an impostor. You don’t feel like a fraud and, you know, your previous podcast, guest said it brilliantly. But for now, right, she said, life is a single player game like quit comparing and you know, I remember when she sit there was listen to your podcast, I wrote it down. Down. And I message that too many of my friends because guess what, when you realize that it’s so freeing, it’s so liberating, you are free to do what you are made to do. You know, your God-given talents, make use of it and stop looking over your shoulder and see who your competitor is or what they are doing. Because that’s actually I think that’s of really not an empowering place to be in.

 

Rodrigo:

Yeah, I think. If one day, if you will be in the final of a Miss Universe, you will win for sure. With that answer.

 

Shulin:

One can dream.

 

Rodrigo:

It is so good. Yeah. So, we’re coming to the end. Yes. And I have one last question for you, yes. So, people ask you a lot of questions, but what is one question that no one has asked you before and you would love to answer well.

 

Shulin:

I guess what am I most get off because a lot of people see this person as being fearless and their coverages. I started podcast, I started my business, but they forget that I still have fears. So, they don’t ask me why? You still very scared off. And what are you scared of? Okay, so I am still scared of so many things quite frankly, I was scared. When you first invited me on this podcast, I’ll be honest because I’m not used to being in the hot seat. I’m used to being the one asking the questions but to ask to answer your question on a more serious note, I’m more scared of being, forget, forgettable and mediocre and that’s why I left law in the first place and that’s why I always seek. Look to see whether there are ways.

I can improve things, whether they are ways different ways of doing things. And I don’t want to be eliminated. So that’s the main thing. I always want to be the best and if I’m not being exceptional, at least I give an exceptional effort in. What I do.

What a wonderful way to end our conversation. Thank you for having me. This is really, really good. I enjoy myself. Yeah, I enjoy the life.

 

Rodrigo:

I think I was so inspired by your story but also you are determination and how you are so focused on growing yourself. But also growing others and how you went through life and taking difficult, decisions and pushing through and at the at the end to become a better person. Yeah. So, thank you for sharing the stories and for inspiring other people to also to take difficult decisions and to have difficult conversations because there’s light and the other hand of the time.

 

Shulin:

Absolutely. Absolutely. It only takes that one step. Thank you so much for doing this. Really appreciate you having me here.