Imagine a Canadian Backpacker sleeping on a park bench. Imagine the same person being the CEO of a large organisation today. It is remarkable, right? Meet Paul Dupuis. He will tell us about this, fantastic Journey, the ups and downs and how to be an exceptional leader. Stay tuned. And don’t forget, do well, do good.

From sleeping on a park bench as a Backpacker to Leading a large organisation. That’s a remarkable Journey. When you look back what were the key moments that enabled you to be where you are today.

 

Paul:

Well and that is a huge question from you know being a Backpacker leaving Canada. The for the first time in 1990 you know with my life savings of somewhere around a three hundred dollars in my pocket and my big red backpack with the Canadian. You know flagstone on and arriving in Osaka in Japan. Not speaking a word of Japanese didn’t have anywhere to stay and so on. But I was motivated by what I think is the most powerful trigger for Discovery. And that’s curiosity, I just wanted to get on the plane and go see what was there fast farword to today. 33 years later, being the CEO of a more than a 1-billion-dollar company. How did that happen? Well, there was a lot of things that happen along the way. Definitely some lucky bounces. But also, if I really had to break it down to something, I would say going back to that Curiosity the spirit of curiosity. And I’ve observed exceptional leaders around the world across genres across history. And not only leaders people who perform at a high level in any genre, right? They typically are people who peek around the corner. They take a look, they try, they take the shot, they give it a go. They have that spirit and I think that’s guided me. Well, through my journey when in doubt just go that’s kind of one of my many Mentors has and so far, knock on wood. It’s worked out pretty well for me. I would add one more thing relationship at the end of the day. I think that’s really. If I had to put it down to one thing that has really helped me go from, you know, that bench to where I am today. There’s so many people have supported me. I don’t know anyone that has had a journey where they’ve had defined it as successive if we like that. Can’t you know name someone that’s helped him along the way. All of us have had people help us on our journey and I am very grateful for that and I realized the importance of that and I’m trying now to also help others on their drink.

 

Rodrigo:

So, you mentioned about curiosity, it has been something that has been driving. You, do you think curiosity? It’s innate or can be developed?

 

Paul:

Oh yeah, that’s a great question. I think, well, I would say just about any characteristic of a human being can be developed this quite a debate about this. By the way, is leadership innate? Or is it learned? Absolutely believe, It can be learned. It’s a muscle that can be fostered and built, but it takes effort. Curiosity can be fostered, it can be fed.

I think, certainly the environment you come from, if you come from an environment in your home, your school and your community, or in your company, where curiosity is encouraged then by Nature, you would become someone who’s curious and, and I was very fortunate in a family. That was, we’re always curious. My mom and dad were active in the community and so on, while they weren’t World Travelers. And you know, they weren’t, you know, Global in that sense. They were always making connections and trying new things and exploring and certainly that had a, that had a deep impact on me.

 

Rodrigo:

You mentioned that something that has been driving you as Curiosity. But also, as a lot of our conversations you talk about purpose, what is your purpose and how it has been helping you in your leadership Journey?

 

Paul:

So, purpose is a powerful thing and I think it’s always under construction. We should rewind back a little bit and I’m sure you can relate to this Rodrigo and when you, we’ve gone through stages in our lives. And if you were to ask me when I was in my teens as that hockey player. Or that, you know, Student Government president in my high school or volunteer in the community, whatever it was probably if you listen to the language, I use, you would have heard III me, me a lot. In my 20s, it was all of I want to be number one. I wanted to be the champion who was in sales. I wanted to be the top sales guy and so the purpose at that time in my life is very different to what it is today. And I think that’s Again, part of the journey and the maturity, let’s call it curved. Part of that certainly is been connected to real life experiences challenges that I faced.

And most recently covid, I was leading a large organization in India through very, very A difficult times through tragedy. And that’s what I had. Kind of an aha moment or even more deep, a really a wake-up call as to, what’s truly important, not only as a leader, but as a human being and, you know, Jim Rohn, the author has this great quote. He says, when the why is clear the how is easy and that. Amen, that when I wake up in the morning, I remind myself every day don’t get caught up in the mud of the water in the how don’t start with that. Start with the “why?”

And that’s something I brought back from me from India. When I moved back to Japan to lead the organization. I have now and I think the reason for that was, I experienced the importance of purpose in time of tragedy, at the end of the day. What’s the role of a leader? One of the key roles that leaders to make sure people are safe and that’s not something. We talked a lot about before covid. We talked about leading the organization forward being the captain of the ship achieving goals strategy to execution and so on. These are all nuts and bolts but in the middle of covid when people were suffering and, in some cases, family members and even employees dying from covid, all of that gets pushed aside, and that was a really important moment for me. So back to your question about purpose, I think for me, I have a kind of simple definition of what a full life is the life. I want to live is based on two things. My aim is to do well and do good, a balance between both. So back to the story, uh, teens 20s. It was all about do well, do well means achieve be the best you can be in whatever role you play in life. Whether you’re a student or a CEO, it doesn’t matter. Be the best you can be It, smash it. Outperform. But do good actually means do something good for the world could be for other people for the environment, whatever your passion is. And so that’s, that’s my purpose now. Moving forward, Do Well, Be the best I can be as a leader and all the other roles I play in my life, husband, father friend. And then, of course, do good. Make a positive impact on the world in some way.

 

Rodrigo:

I mean, all these very inspired and also, how are you, you put purpose at the Forefront that what you do and that’s I really admire that.

 

Paul:

Well thank you and it’s it this is new to me and many of the leaders that I talk to around the world.

Have also discovered the power of purpose and it’s so important. So, while covid-19 such a tragedy it also opened up for all of us, the opportunity to rethink our own purpose and of course you can take that into an organization as well. So, you think about mission and vision statements on around the walls some companies get it right. They have a mission and vision which is strongly rooted in the why, you know, then they get into the what? But you also see a lot of organizations when you look at their mission in their Vision, it’s very focused on the what we will become the leader in our industry. And so, it’s very tactical. It’s very in in a way it’s quite vanilla you can copy paste, a lot of that. So, if you look at companies that have been around for more than 100 years, this is a fascinating thing. Something I’ve been interested in recently, look at companies that have been around the world. For more than 100 years, they all share a common characteristic, a powerful purpose. Without fail. You can look at any companies around the world that have been around for more than 100 years. Because you think about a 100 Year term, how many cycles they’ve gone through and how many game-changing things happened in the world over 100 years from the Industrial Revolution to fast forward to, you know, the internet to the global crisis, financial crisis to covid and soon. All the different things that companies have navigated through and had to some and reinvent themselves while keeping focused on their purpose. I think it’s a really interesting exercise actually is to learn from companies that have been able to whether all those storms and come out and Thrive through those storms.

 

Rodrigo:

Can you share what has been one of the most significant challenges that you faced as a leader, how you navigated and what have you learned from it?

 

Paul:

Well, I’ve had a lot and I’m actually quite fortunate that I’ve been able to work in different environments. Different countries different roles and so on. But if I have to highlight one that again, was game-changing for me in many ways, it was leading a large complex organization in India. And the backstory on this is that I was in Japan leading, one of the Key, Senior leaders of an organization are global company, and then I got the call and the opportunity to go to India, be the captain of the ship. Now, this was a big ship with more than 70 offices across the country, but it was a ship that was shaking. It was an organization that that lacked a strategy and a true north a clear purpose. It was lacking purpose and it never really achieved the goals. In other words, it was underperforming. I was deep in the red. So on. So, all the issues that come with that lack of motivation, lack of Engagement, compliance issues, all those things. So, I was sent to lead transformation. And this word transformation is used a lot.

Transformation is not something you just arrived magically in Bangalore India and say from today we transform. In fact, I don’t believe transformation is something you announce transformation is something that happens. It’s something that happens and one of my bosses back in the day taught me something really interesting concept. He said you know Paul if you want to take the first steps towards transformation he said move the plant. Move the plant. And I thought it was like a riddle move, the plant. And I was thinking it’s yeah. Move the plant most leaders. You say when they try to, you know, trigger transformation, they go aggressively, they want to change everything change for the sake of change and therefore that will lead to transformation, but it inevitably fails, right? You will get resistance instead. He said, subtly make changes move the plant.

And what he meant was that plant that’s sitting in the corner every day, you walk in the office, you walk in the room and that plan is there. So, I went in a little bit earlier. This is my second week in India, into the office and nobody was in the office yet, I turned on the lights and I picked up a plant that was always in this corner. And I moved it over here and I thought if I’m going to move one, I might as well move to, right? So, another plant and moved it to another part in the room. And then I let it sit, I went to my desk and people started to come into the office. Office. And we went on with the day and I was waiting for that first moment and sure enough my head of HR came in and said something’s different here. I don’t know what it is. Something feels different. And of course, I didn’t say what it was so that it go, it took a few days before somebody noticed that a plant had moved. So, I started to do that. Strategically, I started to move plants, not physically moving plants, but it started to make small changes around the organization sometimes. Unannounced sometimes announced and what I found was over time, a series of small subtle changes ultimately, led to transformation. So, when we look back, we said we came from there to here. How did it happen? Well, it was a whole bunch of small things. That happened that led to the outcome, which we call transformation. The organization went from deep in the red to generating a very solid profit with a clear. True North a strong Leadership team and they continue to perform well after I left. So, you know for me transformation is as a power-packed word, but I think we need to really give it more thought about what does it really mean. How does it happen? And in my mind, it’s about small changes about moving the plan.

Wow. Move the plant with the flat. I think a lot of times like that, I think the problem is we transformation starts with the way people see transformation everyone. He’s right transformation it’s about okay. Big changes coming, right? But I like how you broke it in into just move little things. Little plant here in there and at the end you have a you have a big impact. Well let me give you one more example whoo-hoo. Yeah, I mean you’re feeling you’re a fit guy so you probably have the issue. But you know if if anyone’s ever gone on a diet or anyone started off saying, I want to lose 10 pounds or, you know, one of those Lose whatever, 3 Kg whatever it is, they have a goal, I want to lose weight, you can’t do it overnight. We know that that’s the unhealthy way to do it, right? Is to go into complete starvation mode and they always going to bounce back, right? And so, think about that, if you wanted to make a significant change in the way you look, for example, it doesn’t happen overnight. It takes time and how does it happen by small changes? Incremental changes may be changing your eating habits bit It might reduce the amount of calories, you take a, my reduce your amount of carbohydrate, whatever it is but you need to do it over an extended period of time.

And then one day when you step on the scale, wow I’ve achieved it but it happened gradually now. Imagine you haven’t seen a friend since you started this and three months later. He bump into that friend. What’s the friends reaction?

Wow. What a transformation. Because they didn’t see the process in between, right? I see the result. Now, when you’re part of it, you don’t notice the transformation, you can see the before and after photos, but when you’re in the middle of it, you don’t really know it’s the same thing with transformation in an organization. So, the joy I get is when we look back after moving a lot of plants. Yeah, and look back with the team and say it. Look how far we’ve come. And that’s the aha moment. And that’s the moment where you realize that we’ve achieved transformation.

 

Rodrigo:

Wow, I love that. Bowl, good. This is getting really good. Let’s keep going. You spoke about transformation also something that has been happening is in the past few years. There’s been a big transformation in leadership, right? How do you see what has been? The biggest changes in leadership and how do you see the future of leadership?

 

Paul:

So, it’s a really interesting question as a student of leadership. Yeah. You know, I did some research. On this notion of, how do we Define someone to be a potential leader or to be a potential exceptional leader and back in the day 1960s and 70s? Remember IQ still exist, right intelligence quotient. There was a time when HR leaders and leaders in general would use the IQ. Of someone to be a predictor of their ability to be a strong leader, High performers well. And not only leadership but performing in other words, someone with a high IQ was almost guaranteed to be a high performer.

That was the link, okay? And then we discovered something. Hang on a second. The smartest people are not always the highest performers. They’re not always the best leaders. So, then a new thing was born, EQ, emotional quotient. So, we said, okay, it’s important to have A certain level of intelligence but that’s not the only factor that needs to be the human element. Someone who can connect with people and then empathy. And so, on was born and became a leadership competency. And most companies have this in their leadership competency framework, right? So intelligent able to communicate and connect with people so you got hard skills, soft skills. And then over time, we started to see again, empathy came into the picture, more and more. The leader who cares? And the Revelation I had when I was in India, especially leading through the tough times of covid was that is one more, that’s even more important, and I’m going to call it the CQ. So, you’ve got the IQ EQ and I believe the leader, not only the future of today, it’s such acritical element. CQ is compassion quotient. An interesting thing for many, many years, we’ve been talking about empathy that this leader is an empathetic leader and that qualifies, it’s a really important characteristic of a high-performing leader, but empathy, when you look at the dictionary definition of empathy, it actually means to feel, right? And so, when you’re spending time with someone on your team, who’s struggling, whether it’s personal or professionally related, you feel with them and you might even say I feel. Sorry, all right, you know, I hope you’re okay. I’m here to support you call me. anytime you need anything, that was a sign of empathy, but when you hang up that phone or you hang up that Zoom call, The connection is gone.

You still might be feeling for the person, but there’s no action there and action is really about compassion, and that was the lesson I learned in India, because every day through covid, when Delta stock, I was on calls with family members of colleagues or colleagues themselves who were struggling with covid. Either family member was struggling or someone had just passed away. And I was doing my best to show empathy. It was genuine as from the heart, but every time hung up the call, all I felt something was missing. So that’s where compassion comes in and I think the compassionate leader, the leader who feels who has their finger on the pulse of how the team is feeling and doing and engagement and motivation Saint. Who then says, okay, I’m going to convert that knowledge and that feeling I have that awareness. I’m going to convert it into action. That’s the CQ, The Compassion quotient so for the future. Absolutely, I think, leadership the future requires a number of muscles.

There are bunch of muscles that we built over the years coming up. Will be useful in the future. But there are some new ones and that’s one of them. Absolutely compassion.

 

Rodrigo:

And how do you think a leader today can use more compassion in order to succeed in their role?

 

Paul:

Well, I think it’s how you how you start your day and go back to purpose. And every leader I know has different kind of ideas about this. I look at my own calendar, it’s filled with a variety of types of meetings from business reviews to steer Ring of activities to measuring conversion ratios and all of that stuff. That’s really important to be the captain of a ship, but there’s also some elements of connecting with people and what I call them pulse checks pulse checks. So, I’ll sit with a colleague one-on-one, There’s No Agenda unlike the business reviews, which has a very clear agenda. The pulse check, simply begins with How are you doing, Rodrigo? How’s it going? And it’s an open conversation and you learn a lot when you do pulse checks because it gives the person a chance to speak openly and freely. Some people will go straight into business. Some people start talking about things in their personal lives, some people talk about recent successes, some people talk about walls, they’re facing, it’s an open-ended question. It gives the person a chance to really speak freely. So, I’m a big believer in this idea of pulse checks. I call them pulse checks but finding a moment where you’re not doing a structured. Review with people but instead having creating a platform where people can speak openly and freely. So that’s the first step because in order to show compassion to take action to help someone through a struggle at first, you have to understand what are they going through and, you know, my dad had this phrase and I never really understood it when I was growing up, but I get it now. He said, Son, two ears, one mouth Listen, more than you speak. And you will learn. And I think as a leader.

Now while I’m doing my best, to listen, more than I speak to listen, rather than tell and that’s part of the purpose of the pulse check. Wow, I really love that. Yeah, today I work with a lot of leaders and that’s the first thing I said to do with their teams, it’s exactly that you start with that question. And how do you feel and let it get surprised how much they get in terms of the pulse, how much they get in terms of what really happening with their teeth really, really love that. Yeah, thank you. I think there’s one question to that we have to be careful of as well is when a leader asks A team member. So how can I support you? What do you need from me? That’s a bit of a tricky question because sometimes the person doesn’t know The Compassion quotient would say that, okay, I’ve listened to you and now the wheels in my head are turning as the leader. How can I now support this person? What action can I take and instead of asking, how can I help you? How about saying, hey, Rodrigo listen to you. I’ve got an idea, an idea and how maybe I can help you out and get over this wall. What do you say and you talk about the idea and then that leads to something that I would call a promise of action, a POA. So, making a promise of action. That’s also something that That I’ve tried hard to introduce to my teams and I kind of came up with this concept when I was in India that every meeting, whether it’s a business review or whether it’s a pulse check should end in some sort of Promise of action. It goes back to what I said earlier.

The, the EQ is feeling that’s about empathy, that’s about feeling, but the CQ is about taking action. And I really think every interaction needs to have a conclusion or a promise that there will be action when we walk out that door, So in as a leader today, what do you observe as one of the biggest mistakes, that leaders make while leading their teams? What are you looking at me when you asked the question, so I’m going to, I’m going to talk about mistakes I’ve made right? Because we should all start by looking in the mirror and then I can maybe talk about some of the observations I’ve made of beaters around me and so on.

Well, I think the first thing is that really understanding what your role is as a leader. Leadership is a, is not a title on a business card. And any first-time leader, has learned that tough lesson. The moment you get the business card and says you are team leader or your manager, right? And you feel good, feel big feel, strong, feel important. Then you go to your team and you say, alright everyone we’re going to do this and you’re excited but nobody else is that moment where they white? Why aren’t they excited? Why am I the only one in the room who’s excited about this direction? It’s a, it’s a tough, because it’s tough. It’s a tough moment for every leader. We’ve all been there. I’ve been there many times and that’s you fall in the Trap of being the Raleigh to come on, guys. Come on. Let’s do this. And that’s the first, let’s say, step towards being a true leader understanding that the title on the business card. Does not make you a leader leadership is about If you’re and I think actually exceptional leadership is about exceptional Behaviour.  So, think about it like this, right? Would you follow a leader who always had your back in good times and bad times. Would you follow that leader? Absolutely. Would you follow a leader who made promises and kept them? Always would you follow a leader who celebrated your successes with you but challenged you and you were maybe not achieving success? Yeah, and so on and so on and so I could go on and by the way I could ask that question all over the world.

We could ask people across cultures; this is timeless and borderless. It’s not just in business can be in any environment. That’s the interesting thing about leadership, I think a lot of leaders, get it wrong and I was guilty of that as well. The old line do as I say, not as I do.

And I went through that phase as a leader where I’m the leader, so I will then be able to tell people what to do because I’m the leader. It’s on my business card, but we now know that that doesn’t work, I certainly learned my lessons over the years, so instead of saying do this, it’s let’s do this. Let’s do this together. The leader, who’s in the game, Is always more effective. Then the leader whose by the side, I kind of look at it, like, way back in the day, I was an Army Cadet in Canada and that was a great experience because I got to basically get a taste of what it would be like to be in the military training, but with a bit of a softer Edge but we trained with, you know, real soldiers and so on, incredible experience, but one of the things I learned about was leadership and the right time in the right way to lead depending on the moment. So, about. Let’s think about this, it’s a troop of soldiers, right? Three. So, you got one, two, three soldiers, 3,3,3. So, it’s a group of soldiers, right? Okay. And they’re marching along heading into the forest. Let’s say, right? Okay. So, you think about that group of soldiers 333 and they’re marching along.

Where’s the leader? It’s a powerful question to ask leaders around you and maybe even ask yourself. Where’s the leader is the leader at the front. Come on, guys, let’s go. Is it Leader by the side? Come on, let’s keep the pace. Is the leader at the back. Supporting enabling, or is the leader in the middle of the pack? By the way, there’s no one right answer, there’s the right type of leadership for the moment. And knowing when to shift to the front, to the side, to the middle, to the back is a really important characteristic of the effective leader. So, I would say the leaders that get it right. Know when to play which role the ones who don’t are, probably generic and vanilla in their approach. In other words, the one trick pony as week. Always the leader at the front and that’s the classic Pacesetter. Hey, setting leadership the leader, at the very front saying, keep up with me, keep up with me. We know that’s not sustainable. I’ve been through that stage. I’ve absolutely been a –pay setting leader, I’m still maybe even now sometimes accused of being a. So, I try hard now to shift position, depending on the moment, depending on the needs of the team. So that’s, let’s say that’s, you know, a simple way to describe that, you know, sometimes leaders get it wrong.

There are other things. I think sometimes we’re leaders make it more about themselves rather than about the team. I’ll go back to what I said earlier about language, we use. So, the leader who’s very self-centred. I me my versus the leader is all about us. The second leaders, much more effective, much more powerful and build stronger followership, Jim Collins and good to great as a fantastic model of leadership because it level 5 leadership and he studied leaders of companies. Companies that went from good to Great.

And the interesting conclusion, there was generally, not always, but generally the charismatic leader, the leader, who was all about, being in the spotlight about, I about me, representing the company, typically those companies Donato perform and their performance was not sustainable, when that leader left, they would crumble. The companies, on the other hand, they’re went from good to great and had sustainable performance and outperformed had leaders were all about us.

 

Rodrigo:

How do you know, when to move to the front to the back, to the middle or to the side?

 

Paul:

You know, this is another interesting thing, and it’s kind of an idea developing in my head. But we’ve talked about Traditionally talked about strategic leadership. Would say, OH, this leader is very strategic, he or she is very strategic in his Earth thinking. Then we have the Tactical leader, right? The leader who’s in the mud. So, the Strategic thinker is up high and sees the 360 views, probably spends time in a room whiteboarding strategy, maybe with leaders. And so, I’m being very strategic, right? Then the Tactical leaders, the one who’s always out on the floor with the team, always kind of in the mud, right? And then there’s the Visionary leader, the Visionary, Leader is the one that has this unique ability to kind of peek around the corner before we get to the corner. What the Visionary leaders do is they look at the past to anticipate the future. They look for patterns and they also refer to and reflect on wisdom. Built up through successes and mistakes along the way. Those are the Battle Scars. We bring As Leaders, so I believe there’s one more. I believe that’s something I would call. It reflexive leadership over time we build up reflexes, we start to have an ability to know by taking the temperature of the room by understand how people are feeling maybe the pulse, check leveraging empathy and so on don’t understand, you know, this is a moment where I need to be at the front. Or vice versa. This is a moment where I need to be at the back or again, I’ll go back to a sitter there and this is my more recent Revelation is this is a moment where I need to be away. Let it, let it go. Let the team go, let them experiment. Let them maybe fall down, let them maybe succeed. But anyway, hands off.

So, there’s I think that the most exceptional leaders that I’ve seen again, not just in business in sports and so on are the leaders that just know when to be in that position at the right moment? Finding that delicate balance.

 

Rodrigo:

And I think I’m self-awareness play a huge role there, right?

 

Paul:

Oh, absolutely, absolutely yeah. And there are, you know, there’s some great tools as well. I do believe in the power of the 360 assessments. I think that can be a really good tool to understand your intention versus the actual impact that you make is a leader and certainly asking for feedback as well from your team. That’s a tough question to ask. Do you prefer me at the front? You prefer me at the back. Many people say I prefer you not here, you know. And many leaders I talked. To and I’m certainly in this category, you know, it’s uncanny how often when you’re away. Let’s see. Go away on holiday as a leader. You come back and the team is absolutely smashing it. It you can ask 100, litters is question, have you had that experience in probably just about all 100 of experienced it right? When you’re gone, the team shines. So, what does that tell you? There are that there is there, you know, there is something useful about the leader who knows when not to be there.

 

Rodrigo:

Yeah, so good and put you, you recently launched a book, The E5 movements where you came up with Framework for effective leadership. The 5Es? Yeah. Can you take us through the, the five years and how can it help for a leader to become a more effective?

 

Paul:

Sure, sure. Well, thank you. And let me tell you the back story. First of all, you know, I think leadership is like open-source code. Nobody owns this thing called leadership and, you know, formulas for effective leadership and their they’ve been evolving since the beginning of time. We go way back to the time of Aristotle and even go further back there have been leadership models and examples of leadership in play and models. And so, when I wrote this book, actually, I was inspired by a whole bunch of experiences. I had whether it was on the ice hockey rink coaches, I’ve had or in the ballroom as a leader and so on, in the NPO world and so on, but I’ve always been very interested in this thing called leadership.

I think it’s a, it’s an art, it’s a science, it’s a craft. And it’s always under construction and I read a quote from um, well, Isaac Newton, he said, we see further when we stand on the shoulders of giants, and then I start to look at leadership models that have been formulated over time, and just about every Leadership, Model was built on the back of another Leadership Model. And there were certain a bunch that really influenced. Me certainly konosuke Matsushita, the founder of Panasonic companies. Well, over 100 years old, he really had engagement and empathy at the core of everything.

He did, you can go to other genres. Mahatma Gandhi was all about empathy and engagement is pretty good at expression as well. Jack Welch had his three C’s, which then, which he actually I was inspired by his hockey coach. He was an ice hockey player and then his Apprentice Bob McDonald went on to be the CEO P&G had his own version of five, he’s and I actually participated in a PNG leadership training as an external. Let’s say advisor many years ago and that was first time I was exposed to that model and I liked it but I felt something was missing. So, I was constantly crafting my own. I looked at level 5 leadership from good to Great situational leadership. So many him. And then I kind of came up with my own version which I’ve been practicing for many years now. And certainly, I put into play when I was in India, so it’s based on five East. Well, the first e0 is the most important in Vision, coming up with a vision, which is rooted in the, why a compelling Vision touches the hearts and the minds.

Then the second e. Take that Vision out to the world. Express, leverage, omni-channel, get it out there to the world. Make sure people understand it, digested touches their hearts and the minds the 30 A’ight. Let’s get people excited about that Vision about that. Why? And when people are excited, that’s the moment of truth and the leader shifts to the fourth e, enable the leader who creates an environment everybody can shine set people up for success and then the 50 which until the end of time will be the ultimate measurement of success is execution. So, in what I wrote the book, I was, you know, I can kind of using this framework Loosely. Not only in the business Armand. But also, as an ice hockey coach, as a captain of the team, in some of the mpo work, I’ve done even for yourself, individually the five, he’s this sort of flow can really be effective and kind of, I have to say, I’m quite heart-warming to see that. Some people have read the book and actually interpreted it that way and turned it on themselves for their own Journey as an individual and, and applying, you know, starting with coming up with a Clear Vision, which is rooted in the y and taking it right through to execution. So yeah, it’s a model again. It continues to be under construction but I’ll tell you what it was writing. The book was a great exercise, not easy. But yeah, I really helped me kind of crystallized my ideas about leadership.

So, from Envision to execution, you got it. You got it. Yeah. Because if you just have a vision but you can’t execute it. It’s just a Daydream it’s just a Daydream. Nothing wrong with Daydreaming. Yeah, we all start with that but yeah, it’s that’s that is the ultimate I think, you know, scenario where you take something which is so compelling and will be game changing for the world and have Purpose Driven by purpose and you bring people along with you on this.

And that’s why it’s called the five movement because the most exceptional leaders again in business and sports and politics and the Arts. And so on, they created movements, they know never did it alone.

 

Rodrigo:

Really, really good. Nice. So now, for aspiring leaders that they want to create impact in the world. What’s your biggest advice for them?

 

Paul:

Well, we’ll go back to purpose, huh? I don’t think we can bang that drum enough if you want to make an impact on the world. What does that impact look like? And why is it important? Why is that impact important? So, you know, and sometimes it doesn’t come easily. Yeah, it’s like hunting for the blue ocean. We’re all looking for that blue ocean where we can compete freely and swim freely, and we have barriers to entry all around us. So, it’s hard for competitors to coming. I think it’s kind of similar with leadership to be that leader who makes an impact. Because all leaders by Nature should want to make a positive impact. Now, defining what positive impact means. I think that’s, that’s a good place to start. What do you stand for? Is the leader and perhaps coming up with a short list. Of whom you are, as a leader. And what do you stand for? You know, if I go back to when I wrote the book, The reason I wrote the book, I was actually at a course at London Business School. And coincidentally, it was while I was leading in India and the course was called transformational leadership Great timing. I was in the middle of this storm; the captain of this massive ship and I needed help. So I was in this course, it was great. And the question that the professor asked me which I encourage all leaders to ask themselves and ask the leaders around you. The same question is very interesting question he said OKAY so Paul tell me what is exceptional leadership look like It’s a big question and you might think, Ah, that’s pretty easy. Wow, these are leaders who you know, lead from the front who walk their you suddenly would default to what you think. We but that becomes the core of developing, your ideas around leadership a leader, who will make impact and what I found when I got talking about what I thought, exceptional leadership looked like, I was actually formulating it in my head. And then he asks, the important question so, is that you and that can be a knockout punch or many litters because the exceptional leader, you know, the impactful leader that we Define in our head. The harsh reality is that might not be us when we turn the mirror on ourselves.

So, I would say to the leader who really wants to make an impact to find what you stand for as a leader. How are you want to be viewed as a leader? And also think about Legacy because leadership in many ways about Legacy.

What Legacy do you want to leave behind? How do you want to be remembered when you leave that role? To me that ultimately, that’s the impact. And again, I’ll go back to what Jim Collins said in. Good to great when you measure the effect of exceptional leadership. It’s not about what the leader does. Only what the leader does. While he or She are in the role. It’s what happens after he or she leaves. That’s the ultimate test of the exceptional leader pulled. What do you think is the role of having a coach on also becoming an Optional leather. It’s a really important question. Let’s take it back to sports for a moment. Even the most exceptional players performers have coaches in the Sports World, Isn’t that interesting? Yet, when we talk about leadership, we get to a certain stage in our career, we’re for some reason. We assume that we don’t need coaching, I believe every leader needs a coach and every leader should be a coach as well. So that should be part of your day. You should be coaching and you should have some So you’re getting coach and you know, this industry of coaching has really taken off in the past few years, I think partly because of covid, we were struggling and looking for answers and guidance navigating through the murky Waters. Well, I have a coach, in fact, my coach is a fellow named Marshall Goldsmith in may have heard of him. He’s quite a well-known author. He’s also the world’s number one leadership thinker, according to Forbes. So, on and Marshall actually was an apprentice, or a student of Peter Drucker. The leadership Guru and I’ve been very fortunate to come to know Marshall quite well.

He’s been a coach and a mentor and a friend, and he taught me something that Peter Drucker taught him. And he passed it along to me. He said, Peter Drucker told him that the mission of the leader is not to be the smartest person in the room.

It’s to make a positive impact on the world. Just digest that for a minute. The mission of the leader is not to be the smartest person in the room. Mission of the leader is to make a positive impact on the world. That kind of sums it up for me. That really when Marshall shared that with me, it really brought Clarity to who I want to be as a leader moving forward. So, and that’s comes back to my guiding principle of aiming to do Well and do good.

 

Rodrigo:

What a great way to finalize our conversation. We have one more question which is like people ask you a lot of questions but what is one question that? No one asked you before and you would love to answer.

 

Paul:

So that’s a great question. That’s a great question. Okay, so, when we were younger, we were kids, you probably got this question a lot from people young Rodrigo. What do you want to be when you grow up? We got that question a lot. We were kids, right. Can you remember the last time somebody asked you that question? We don’t get asked that question. When have we become adults? The assumption is, we’re already grown up so I haven’t had it. Someone asked me that question, probably since I was, you know, 12 13 years old. So, I would want to be asked that question. Hey Paul, what do you want to be when you grow up? Because I actually believe that we’re always evolving. And when you define grow up, what does it really mean? Do we ever totally grow up fully grow up? I hope not. That’s kind of boring. And I think about that, make it in real terms. When I got on the plane in1990 with that, backpack heading off to Japan is land of mystery. And, you know, not speaking, Japanese not know, anyone going to sleep on a park bench.

I was motivated by curiosity, but at that time, you might recall the Walkman, the old Sony Walkman. Right-handed on my belt and had the headphones on. I was listening. NG to 1980s music. You know what I listen to now, 1980s music. So, you could argue that, you know, still haven’t grown up. So, what you want to be when you grow up, that would be the question. I think I’ll go back to what I said earlier. I just want to live a life, which is rooted in doing well and doing good, that’s it. And if that happens to be that, I’m the CEO of a large organization, or I’m sitting with you having a chat or writing a book or speaking or sitting with friends, family colleagues. I just want to be someone who did well and did good during his life.

 

Rodrigo:

We met two years ago and it on clubhouse. And but what it’s been interesting every time we talk, it’s like this, I feel energized, you know, there’s I think we both share a curiosity, a purpose, you know, and it’s been amazing to share moments with you. And I had a blast in this conversation. So and so the last thing I would say to everyone Do Well do good, thank you for coming.

 

Paul:

Thanks Rodrigo. Great chat.